Transcripts from video deposition of Lewinsky, Jordan, and Blumenthal
[Congressional Record: February 4, 1999 (Senate)]
[Page S1199-S1254]
From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access
In the Senate of the United States Sitting for the Trial of the
Impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton, President of the United
States
excerpts of video deposition of monica s. lewinsky
(Monday, February 1, 1999, Washington, D.C.)
SENATOR DeWINE: If not, I will now swear the witness.
Ms. Lewinsky, will you raise your right hand, please?
Whereupon, MONICA S. LEWINSKY was called as a witness and,
after having been first duly sworn by Senator DeWine, was
examined and testified as follows:
SENATOR DeWINE: The House Managers may now begin your
questioning.
MR. BRYANT: Thank you, Senator.
Good morning to all present.
examination by house managers
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Ms. Lewinsky, welcome back to Washington, and wanted to
just gather a few of our friends here to have this deposition
now. We do have quite a number of people present, but we--in
spite of the numbers, we do want you to feel as comfortable
as possible because I think we--everyone present today has an
interest in getting to the truth of this matter, and so as
best as you can, we would appreciate your answers in a--in a
truthful and a fashion that you can recall. I know it's been
a long time since some of these events have occurred.
But for the record, would you state your name once again,
your full name?
A. Yes. Monica Samille Lewinsky.
Q. And you're a--are you a resident of California?
A. I'm--I'm not sure exactly where I'm a resident now, but
I--that's where I'm living right now.
Q. Okay. You--did you grow up there in California?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm not going to go into all that, but I thought just a
little bit of background here.
You went to college where?
A. Lewis and Clark, in Portland, Oregon.
Q. And you majored in--majored in?
A. Psychology.
Q. Tell me about your work history, briefly, from the time
you left college until, let's say, you started as an intern
at the White House.
A. Uh, I wasn't working from the time I--
Q. Okay. Did you--
A. I graduated college in May of '95.
Q. Did you work part time there in--in Oregon with a--with
a District Attorney--
A. Uh--
Q. --in his office somewhere?
A. During--I had an internship or a practicum when I was in
school. I had two practicums, and one was at the public
defender's office and the other was at the Southeast Mental
Health Network.
Q. And those were in Portland?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What--you received a bachelor of science in
psychology?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. As a part of your duties at the Southeast Health
Network, what did you--what did you do in terms of working?
Did you have direct contact with people there, patients?
A. Yes, I did. Um, they referred to them as clients there
and I worked in what was called the Phoenix Club, which was a
socialization area for the clients to--really to just hang
out and, um, sort of work on their social skills. So I--
Q. Okay. After your work there, you obviously had occasion
to come to work at the White House. How did--how did you come
to decide you wanted to come to Washington, and in particular
work at the White House?
A. There were a few different factors. My mom's side of the
family had moved to Washington during my senior year of
college and I wanted--I wasn't ready to go to graduate school
yet. So I wanted to get out of Portland, and a friend of our
family's had a grandson who had had an internship at the
White House and had thought it might be something I'd enjoy
doing.
Q. Had you ever worked around--in politics and campaigns or
been very active?
A. No.
Q. You had to go through the normal application process of
submitting a written application, references, and so forth
to--to the White House?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that while you were still in Oregon, or were
you already in D.C.?
A. No. The application process was while I was a senior in
college in Oregon.
Q. Had you ever been to Washington before?
A. Yes.
Q. Obviously, you were accepted, and you started work when?
A. July 10th, 1995.
Q. Where--where were you assigned?
A. The Chief--
Q. Physically, where were you located?
A. Oh, physically?
Q. Yes.
A. Room 93 of the Old Executive Office Building.
Q. Were you designated in any particular manner in terms
of--were all interns the same, I guess would be my question?
A. Yes and no. We were all interns, but there were a select
group of interns who had blue passes who worked in the White
House proper, and most of us worked in the Old Executive
Office Building with a pink intern pass.
Q. Now, can you explain to me the significance of a pink
pass versus a blue pass?
A. Sure.
Q. Okay. Is it--is it access?
A. Yes.
Q. To what?
A. A blue pass gives you access to anywhere in the White
House and a pink intern pass gives you access to the Old
Executive Office Building.
Q. Did interns have blue passes?
A. Yes, some.
Q. Some did, and some had pink passes?
A. Correct.
Q. And you had the pink?
A. Correct.
Q. How long was your internship?
A. It was from July 'til the end of August, and then I
stayed on for a little while until the 2nd.
Q. Are most interns for the summertime--you do part of the
summer or the entire summer?
A. I believe there are interns all year-round at the White
House.
Q. Now, you as an intern, you are unpaid.
A. Correct.
Q. And tell--tell me how you came to, uh, through your
decisionmaking process, to seek a paid position and stay in
Washington.
A. Uh, there were several factors. One is I came to enjoy
being at the White House, and I found it to be interesting. I
was studying to take the GREs, the entrance exam for graduate
school, and needed to get a job. So I--since I had enjoyed my
internship, my supervisor at the time, Tracy Beckett, helped
me try and secure a position.
Q. Now, you mentioned the pink pass that you had. So you
were able to--I don't want to presume--you were able to get
into the White House on occasion even with a pink pass?
A. The--do you mean the White House proper, or--
Q. Yes, the White House--
A. --the complex?
Q. Yes. Let me be clear. When I--I tend to say ``White
House''--I mean the actual building itself. And I know
perhaps you think of the whole complex in terms of the
whole--
A. I'm sorry. Just to be clear--
Q. Yes.
A. --do you mean the West Wing and the residence and--
Q. Right.
A. --the East Wing when you say the White House?
Q. Right. The White House where the President lives, and
works, I guess, right.
A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?
Q. Yes, yes. I mean that White House. As an intern, you had
a pink pass that did allow you to have access to that White
House where the President was on occasion?
A. No.
[[Page S1213]]
Q. Did not. Did you have--did you ever get in there as an
intern?
A. Yes.
Q. And under--under what circumstances?
A. It--
Q. Did you have to be accompanied by someone, or--
A. Exactly; someone with a blue pass.
Q. So how did you--once you decided you wanted to stay in
Washington and find a paying job, you sought out some help
from friends there, people you knew, contacts, and you were--
you did--you were successful?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were hired where--where in the White House?
A. In Legislative Affairs.
Q. Now, again, to educate me on this, in that group, in
that section, department, you would have worked where,
physically?
A. Physically, in the East Wing.
Q. Okay, and as an intern before, you worked in the Old
Executive Office Building?
A. Correct.
Q. But you moved about and occasionally would go into the
White House, if escorted?
A. Correct.
Q. It takes a while, but I'll get there with you; I'll
catch up.
When did you actually--what was your first day on the job
with the Legislative Affairs, uh, group?
A. Um, first day on the job was sometime after the
furlough. I was hired right before the furlough, but the
paperwork hadn't gone through, so first day on the job was
some point after the furlough. I don't remember the exact
date.
Q. So you remained, uh, on as an intern during the
furlough--
A. Correct.
Q. --the Government shutdown period.
A. Correct.
Q. And that was in November of 1995, some date during that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Um, tell me how you, um, began--I guess the--the--
we're going to talk about a relationship with the President.
Uh, when you first, uh, I guess, saw him, I think there was
some indication that you didn't speak to him maybe the first
few times you saw him, but you had some eye contact or sort
of smiles or--
A. I--I believe I've testified to that in the grand jury
pretty extensively.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Is--is there something more specific?
Q. Well, again, I'm wanting to know times, you know, how
soon that occurred and sort of what happened, you know, if
you can--you know, there are going to be occasions where
you--obviously, you testified extensively in the grand jury,
so you're going to obviously repeat things today. We're doing
the deposition for the Senators to view, we believe, so
it's--
MR. CACHERIS: May I note an objection. The Senators have
the complete record, as you know, Mr. Bryant, and she is
standing on her testimony that she has given on the occasions
that Mr. Stein alluded to at the introduction of this
deposition.
MR. BRYANT: Well, I appreciate that, but, uh, if this is
going to be the case, we don't even need the deposition,
because we're limited to the record and everything is in the
record. So I think, uh, to be fair, we're--we're obviously
going to have to talk about, uh, some things for 8 hours
here, or else we can go home.
THE WITNESS: Sounds good to me.
[Laughter.]
MR. BRYANT: I think we probably all would like to do that.
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, are you objecting to the question?
MR. CACHERIS: Yes. I'm objecting to him asking specific
questions that are already in the record that--he has said
they are limited to the record, and so we accept his, his
designation. We're limited to the record.
SENATOR DeWINE: We're going to go off the record for just a
moment.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 9:37 a.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on the record at 9:45
a.m.
SENATOR DeWINE: We are now back on the record.
The objection is noted, but it's overruled, and the witness
is instructed to answer the question.
Senator Leahy?
SENATOR LEAHY: And I had noted during the break that
obviously, the witness has 48 hours to correct her
deposition, and would also note that when somebody has
testified to some of these things 20 or more times that it is
not unusual to have some nuances different, and that could
also be reflected in time to correct her testimony.
And I had also noted when we were off the record Mr.
Manager Bryant's comment on January 26th, page S992 in the
Congressional Record, in which he said: ``If our motion is
granted, I want to make this very, very clear. At no point
will we ask any questions of Monica Lewinsky about her
explicit sexual relationship with the President, either in
deposition or, if we are permitted on the floor of the
Senate, they will not be asked.''
And I should add also, to be fair to Mr. Bryant, another
sentence in that: ``That, of course, assumes that White House
Counsel does not enter into that discussion, and we doubt
that they would.'' Period, close quote.
SENATOR DeWINE: Let me just add something that I stated to
counsel and to Ms. Lewinsky off the record, and I think I
will briefly repeat it, and that is that counsel is entitled
to an answer to the question, but Ms. Lewinsky certainly can
reference previous testimony if she wishes to do that. But
counsel is entitled to a new explanation of--of what
occurred.
Counsel, you may--why don't you re-ask the question, and we
will proceed.
MR. BRYANT: May I, before I do that, ask a procedural
question in terms of timekeeping?
SENATOR DeWINE: The time is not counted--any of the time
that you have--once there is an objection, none of the time
is counted until we rule on the objection and until you then
have the opportunity to ask the question again. So the time
will start now.
MR. BRYANT: Very good.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Ms. Lewinsky, again, let me--I know this is difficult,
but let me apologize that, uh, that it is going to be
necessary that I ask you these questions because we're
limited to the record and if we--we can't ask you any new
questions outside that record, so I have to talk about what's
in the record. And I realize you've answered all these
questions several times before, but it's, uh--I'm sincere
that we really wouldn't need to take your deposition if we
couldn't ask you those kinds of questions. So it's not
motivated to cause you uncomfort or to make you sit here in
Washington when you'd rather be in California. We'll try to
get through this as quickly as we can.
But we were talking about when you were first assigned
there at the White House and those initial contacts, and I
mean, again, when you were--you would see the President. I
think you've mentioned you would--there was some mild
flirting going on; you would smile or you would make eye
contact. It was something of this nature?
A. Yes.
Q. And the first--was the first time you actually spoke to
the President or he spoke to you, other than perhaps a hello
in the hallway, was that on November the 15th, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was--that was the day, uh, of the first so-
called salacious encounter, the same day?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when the President gave a statement testifying
before the grand jury, he--he described that relationship as
what I considered sort of an evolving one. He says: ``I
regret that what began as a friendship came to include this
conduct.'' And he goes on to take full responsibility for his
actions. But that almost sounds as if this was an evolving--
something from a friendship evolving over time to a sexual
relationship. That was not the case, was it?
A. I--I can't really comment on how he perceived it. My
perception was different.
Q. Okay--
A. But I--I--I mean, I don't feel comfortable saying that
he didn't, that he didn't see it that way, or that's wrong;
that's how he saw it. I--
Q. But you saw it a different way?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, on November the 15th, had you already accepted this
job with Legislative Affairs?
A. Yes.
Q. And, uh, was--that was during the shutdown, so you had
no job to go to because the Government was shut down.
A. No. I accepted it on the Friday before the furlough.
Q. And that--
A. But the paperwork hadn't gone through.
Q. Okay. Did, uh--when you first met with the President on
November the 15th, did he say anything to you that would
indicate that he knew you were an intern?
A. No.
Q. Did he make a comment about your, your pink security
badge?
A. Can I ask my counsel a question real quickly, please?
[Witness conferring with counsel.]
MR. CACHERIS: Okay, Mr Bryant.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. It was--that occurred in the second
encounter of that evening.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Okay. On November--
A. So, not the first encounter.
Q. On November the 15th, 1995?
A. Correct.
Q. What--do you recall what he said or what he did in
regard to the intern pass?
A. He tugged on my pass and said: ``This is going to be a
problem.''
Q. And what did, uh--did he say anything else about what he
meant by ``problem''?
A. No.
Q. Tell me about your job at Legislative Affairs. Did that
involve going into the White House itself?
A. Yes. My job was in the White House.
Q. You were in one wing, but did that involve going--did it
give you access--
A. Yes.
Q. --pretty well throughout the White House?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do primarily?
A. I worked under Jocelyn Jolly, who supervised the letters
that came from the Hill; so the opening of those letters and
reading them and vetting them and preparing responses for the
President's signature--responding.
Q. Now, you've indicated through counsel at the beginning
that you are willing to affirm, otherwise adopt, your sworn
testimony of August the 6th and August the 20th, I think,
which would be grand jury, and the deposition of August the
26th, 1998.
A. Correct.
[[Page S1214]]
Q. So you're saying that that information is accurate, and
it is truthful?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, thank you. That--that will save us a little bit of
time, but certainly we will ask you some of that information
also.
At some point, you were transferred to the Pentagon, to the
Department of Defense. When did that occur?
A. I found out I was being transferred on April 5th, 1996.
Q. Did you want to go--
A. No.
Q. --to the Department of Defense? Did you have a
discussion with the President about this?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your reaction to being transferred?
A. I started to cry.
Q. Did you talk to anyone else at the White House other
than the President about the transfer at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And who--who was that?
A. I spoke with several people. I--I can't--I know I--I
spoke with, uh, Jocelyn about it. I spoke with people with
whom I was friendly at the White House. I spoke to Betty,
Nancy Hernreich, several people.
Q. Did you--did you find out why you were being
transferred?
A. Uh, I was told why I was being transferred by Mr.
Keating on Friday, the 5th of April.
Q. And that was why?
A. Uh, he said that the--the Office of Administration, I
think it was, was not pleased with the way the correspondence
was being handled, and they were, quote-unquote, ``blowing
up'' the Correspondence Office, and that I was being
transferred and it had nothing to do with my work.
Q. Did you have any understanding that it might have been
other reasons that you were being moved?
A. Not at that point.
Q. Did the--what did the President say about your transfer
at that point?
A. He thought it had something to do with our relationship.
Q. What else did he say about--about your transfer, if
anything? Did he give you any assurances that you might be
back, or--
A. Yes.
Q. Back after what time period?
A. He promised me he'd bring me back after the election.
Q. So this was, again, in early 19--April of 1996, and he
was up for reelection--
A. Yes.
Q. --in November of 1996.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you attach any significance to being transferred
away before the election and then him assuring you he would
bring you back after the election? Did you attach any
significance to the election and your having to leave?
A. Emotional significance, yes.
Q. Your emotion? I'm--I'm not sure I follow you. You were--
A. Well, yes, I attached significance to it.
Q. And that was emotional--
A. But that was emotional.
Q. But the reason you both felt--again, I'm not trying to
put words in your mouth, but you both felt you were leaving
until after the election was because of your relationship and
perhaps people finding out?
A. No. I--I--first, I can only speak for myself. I mean, I,
uh, my understanding initially was that it was, um, for work-
related issues, but not my work, and I came to understand
later that it was having to do with my relationship with the
President.
Q. Okay. Did, uh, you have a conversation--and it may be
the same one with the President on April the 12th--which
determined that Ms. Lieberman maybe spearheaded your transfer
because you were paying too much attention--you were all--you
were both paying too much attention to each other and she was
worried that it was close to election time? And I think
you've testified to that, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, good. You started, uh, with the Department of
Defense at the Pentagon in mid-April, April the 17th, 1996?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do there?
A. I was the confidential assistant to Mr. Bacon, who is
the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs.
Q. Did, uh--after the 1996 election, did you still want to
go back to the White House?
A. Yes.
Q. You had not fallen in love with the job at the Pentagon
that much?
A. No.
Q. Was that, in fact, a frustrating period of time?
A. Yes. No offense to Mr. Bacon, of course.
Q. I understand; I'm sure he would take none.
I would like--I don't think it's been mentioned, but you
helped in preparing a chart which we have listed as one of
our exhibits, ML Number 2, which I assume might have a
different number for now, but it's a chart of contacts--
A. Right.
Q. --that you had with the President. And do you have a
copy of that chart? It--
[Witness conferring with counsel.]
MR. BRYANT: In the--yes, in the record, it's at page 1251.
MR. BURTON: May we have an extra copy for counsel, please?
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Have you had occasion to review this document?
A. Yes.
Q. And very--very simply, I would like for you to, uh, if
you can, to affirm that document as an accurate
representation and a truthful representation of all the
contacts that you had with the President from approximately
August 9th, 1995 until January of 1998. It includes in-person
contacts, telephone calls, gifts and notes exchanged, I think
are the categories.
A. Yes. I believe there might have been one or two changes
that were made and noted in the grand jury or my deposition,
and I adopt those as well.
MR. BRYANT: Okay, good.
I am not going to at this point make her--the information
she adopts and affirms exhibits to this deposition. I don't
want to clutter it any more unless someone wants to make this
an exhibit in terms of your deposition testimony, your grand
jury testimony, and now the charts that you have affirmed, so
I just want you to specifically affirm it but not make it an
exhibit, because it's already a part of the record.
MR. CACHERIS: We defer to the White House.
MS. SELIGMAN: I just wanted to make clear on the record,
then, what the app. or sub-cite is of anything we're adopting
so that we all know what particular pages it is.
MR. BRYANT: Okay. And that, again, was, I think, page 1251
of--right, of the record.
SENATOR LEAHY: I don't--I don't understand.
MS. MILLS: Can you cite the ending page?
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, is that where this appears?
MR. BRYANT: It appears in the record, uh--
SENATOR DeWINE: You need to designate also if you're
talking about the Senate record or--I think at this point
we'll go off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 10:01 a.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on the record at 10:11
a.m.
SENATOR DeWINE: Let me--we're now back on the record.
Let me advise counsel, the Managers, that they have used 25
minutes so far.
You may resume questioning, and if you could begin by
identifying the exhibit for the record, please.
MR. BRYANT: Tom, let me also for clarification purposes--
Tom, on the referral to the Senate record, you're saying that
the appendices are numbered 3, but the numbers are the same.
The page numbers are the same.
MR. GRIFFITH: Yes.
MR. BRYANT: And the supplemental materials are your Volume
IV, but, again, the pages are the same.
MR. GRIFFITH: That's our understanding.
MR. BRYANT: Okay. For the record, then, using the Senate
volumes, if this is an appendices, Volume III, and the chart
that we just alluded to before the break is--appears at pages
116 through 126 of the Senate record, Volume III.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Ms. Lewinsky, did you tell a number of people in varying
details about your relationship with the President?
A. Yes.
Q. you tell us who did you tell?
A. Catherine Allday Davis, Neysa Deman Erbland, Natalie
Ungvari, Ashley Raines, Linda Tripp, Dr. Kathy Estep, Dr.
Irene Kassorla, Andy Bleiler, my mom, my aunt. Who else has
been subpoenaed?
Q. Okay. Let me suggest Dale--did you mention Dale Young?
A. Dale Young. I'm sorry.
Q. Thank you.
Now, in the floor presentation, Mr. Craig, who was one of--
is one of the counsel for the President, adopted an argument
that had been raised in some of the previous hearings, uh,
and he adopted this argument in the Senate that--that you
have--have or had, I think, both past and present, the
incentive to not tell the truth about how the President--this
relationship with him because you wanted to avoid--and again,
I use the quote from Mr. Craig's argument--the demeaning
nature of providing wholly un-reciprocated sex.
Did, uh--did you lie before the grand jury and to your
friends about the nature of that relationship with the
President--
A. No.
Q. --so as to avoid what Mr. Craig says? Okay, and I'll
break it down.
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, do you want to just--just rephrase
the question?
MR. BRYANT: Okay. We'll break it down into two questions.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Did you not tell the truth before the grand jury as to
how the President touched you because of what Mr. Craig
alleges as the demeaning nature of the wholly un-reciprocated
sex?
MR. CACHERIS: Well, that--may I register an objection,
gentlemen? This witness is not here to comment on what some
lawyer said on the floor of the Senate. He can ask her direct
questions. She will answer them, but what Mr. Craig said or
didn't say would have happened after her grand jury
testimony. So it's totally inappropriate that he's--
SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, why don't you--
MR. CACHERIS: --marrying those two concepts. We object.
SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, why don't you just rephrase the
question?
MR. BRYANT: Well, we--we have had presented on behalf of
the President a defense,
[[Page S1215]]
an incentive, a reason why she would not tell the truth, and
I think she should have the opportunity to respond to that--
that allegation.
MR. CACHERIS: We--we don't, uh--
SENATOR LEAHY: Ask her a direct question.
MR. CACHERIS: We welcome you asking her if her testimony
was truthful, and she will tell you that it is truthful. We
don't have any problem with that. We don't have any brief
with what the White House did or didn't do through their
counsel. That's their business. We don't represent the White
House.
MS. SELIGMAN: So, for the record, I'd like to object to the
characterization of what Mr. Craig says, which obviously
speaks for itself, but I certainly don't want my silence to
be construed as accepting the Manager's characterization of
it.
SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, why don't you--why don't you
ask the question?
MR. BRYANT: Okay.
SENATOR DeWINE: Go ahead and ask your question.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. In regard to your testimony at the grand jury about
your--your relationship and the physical contact that you
have said occurred in some of these, uh, visits with the
President, it has been characterized in a way that would give
you an excuse not to tell the truth. Did you tell the truth
in the grand jury about what actually happened and how the
President touched--the President touched you?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you likewise tell the truth to your friends in
connection with the same matters?
A. Yes.
Q. Did your relationship with the President involve giving
gifts, exchanging gifts?
A. Yes.
Q. And you mentioned earlier that in reference to this
chart that it was, uh, subject to certain corrections you've
made in later testimony. It was an accurate representation or
an accurate compilation of the gifts that, uh, you gave the
President and the President gave you. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many gifts did you give the President?
A. I believe I've testified to that number. I don't recall
right now.
Q. About 30? Would that be--
A. If that's what I testified to, then I accept that.
Q. That's the number I have, and do you recall how many
gifts approximately the President gave you?
A. It would be the same situation.
Q. Okay, and you've previously testified in your grand jury
that he gave you about 18 gifts.
A. I accept that.
Q. Okay, good. What types of gifts did you give the
President?
A. They varied. I think they're listed on this chart, and
I've testified to them.
Q. Okay, and--
MR. CACHERIS: Do you want her to read the list that's on
this chart?
MR. BRYANT: No. I was just, again, looking for just a--I
think maybe a little broader category, but that's--that's
okay. That's an acceptable answer there.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. After leaving the White House and going to the Pentagon,
did you continue to visit the President?
A. Yes.
Q. How would you--how would you be transported from the
Pentagon over to the White House? How did you get there?
A. I drove or took a taxi.
Q. Do you have your own car?
A. No.
Q. Whose--whose car would you drive?
A. Either my mom's or my brother's.
Q. So you did have access to a vehicle?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. How were these meetings arranged when you would
want to go from the Pentagon to the White House? How did--how
did these--how were they set up? Did you get an appointment?
[The witness conferring with counsel.]
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel--if you have to ask counsel, you
can stop and ask us--
THE WITNESS: Okay.
SENATOR DeWINE: --to do that.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. How were these meetings arranged?
A. Through Ms. Currie.
Q. Would--would you call her and set the meeting up, or
would she call you on behalf of the President and set the
meeting up?
A. It varied.
Q. Both--both situations occurred?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, Ms. Currie is the President's--that's Betty Currie,
we're talking about, the President's secretary?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was this done? Why was that procedure used?
A. It was my understanding that Ms. Currie took care of the
President's guests who were coming to see him, making those
arrangements.
Q. Was, uh--was this--were these visits done sort of off
the record, so to speak, so it wouldn't necessarily be a
record?
A. I believe so.
Q. In other words, you wouldn't be shown on Betty Currie's
calendar or schedule book for the President?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did--who suggested this type of arrangement for setting
up meetings?
A. I believe the President did.
Q. During this time that you were at the Department of
Defense at the Pentagon, uh, how--how was it working out
about you being transferred back to the White House? How was
the job situation coming?
A. Well, I waited until after the election and then spoke
with the President about it on several occasions.
Q. And what would he say in response?
A. Various things; ``I'm working on it,'' usually.
Q. In July, uh, particularly around the--the 3rd and 4th of
July, there--there--you wrote the President a letter, I
think.
A. Which year?
Q. July of '90--it would have been '97 that you wrote the
President a letter expressing some frustrations about the job
situation in terms of--is that, uh--can you tell us about
that?
A. Yes. I had had a--well, I guess I was--I know I've
testified about this, I mean, in the grand jury, but I was
feeling at that point that I was getting the runaround on
being brought back to the White House. So I sent a letter to
the President that was probably the harshest I had sent.
Q. Did you get a response?
A. Sort of.
Q. Would you explain?
A. Um, Betty called me and told me to come to the White
House the next morning, on July 4th, at 9:00 a.m.
Q. And what happened when you--I assume you went to the
White House on July the 4th. What happened?
A. I know I--I--do you have a specific question? I know I
testified, I mean, extensively about this whole day, that
whole--
Q. Well, in regards to--let's start with the job.
A. Well, I started crying. We were in the back office and,
um--and when the subject matter came up, the President was
upset with me and then I began to cry. So--
Q. Did he encourage you about you coming back? Did he make
a promise or commitment to you that he would make sure you
came back to work at the White House?
A. I don't know that he reaffirmed his promise or
commitment. I remember leaving that day thinking that, as
usual, he was going to work on it and had a renewed sense of
hope.
Q. Did he comment on your letter, the tone of your letter?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He was upset with me and told me it was illegal to
threaten the President of the United States.
Q. Did you intend the letter to be interpreted that way?
A. No.
Q. Did you explain why you wrote the letter to him about
reminding him that you were a good girl and you left the
White House? Did you have that type of conversation?
A. Yes. That's what made me start to cry.
Q. Did you, uh--did you ever explain to him that you didn't
intend to threaten him?
A. I believe so.
Q. What was the intent of the letter?
A. First, I felt the letter was going to him as a man and
not as President of the United States. Um, second, I think I
could see how he could interpret it as a threat, but my
intention was to sort of remind him that I had been waiting
patiently and what I considered was being a good girl, about
having been transferred.
Q. And the threat we're talking about here would not have
been interpreted as a threat to do physical injury or bodily
injury to him. It was to expose your relationship to the--to
your parents--
A. Correct.
Q. --explain to them why you were not going back to the
White House--
A. Correct.
Q. --after the election?
And certainly the President did not encourage you to expose
that relationship, did he?
A. I don't believe he made any comment about it at that
point.
Q. His only comment about the so-called threat was that
it's a---it's--you can't do that, it's against the law to
threaten the President?
A. Exactly.
Q. That meeting turned into--I guess you've testified that
that meeting did turn into a more positive meeting toward the
end. It was not all emotional and accusations being made?
A. Correct.
Q. At some point, uh--well, let me--let me back up and ask
this. There was a subsequent meeting on July the 14th, and I
believe the President had been out of town and this was the
follow-up meeting to the July 4th meeting where you had
originally discussed the possibility of a newspaper reporter
or a magazine writer, I believe, writing a story about Ms.
Willey?
A. Correct.
Q. And you, uh--did you have any instructions from the
President, from either of these meetings, about doing
something for the President, specifically about having Ms.
Tripp call White House counsel--
A. I don't know--
Q. --Mr. Lindsey?
A. --that I'd call them instructions.
Q. Okay. What did he tell you? I don't want to
mischaracterize.
A. He asked me if I would try to have Ms. Tripp contact Mr.
Lindsey.
Q. Okay, and if you were to be successful in doing that,
what were you supposed to do?
[[Page S1216]]
Were you supposed to contact Ms. Currie, his secretary?
A. Yes.
Q. And what were you supposed to tell her?
A. In an innocuous way that I had been able to convey that
to Ms. Tripp or get her to do that.
Q. Now, in--at some point in October of that year, 1997,
did your job focus change?
A. Yes.
Q. And how was that? What were you doing?
A. Uh, it really changed on October 6th, 1997, as a result
of a conversation with Linda Tripp.
Q. Uh, in that, as I understand, you sort of got secondhand
information that you were probably never going back to work
at the White House.
A. Correct.
Q. Did you understand what that meant? Did you accept that?
And I guess why would you accept it at that point? Why would
you give up on the White House?
MR. CACHERIS: Those are three questions, Mr. Bryant. Will
you--would you break it down, please?
MR. BRYANT: Well, yeah, it's true.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Do you understand? I guess I'm trying to clarify.
A. Not really. I'm sorry.
Q. Why would you accept at that point in October that you
were never going back to the White House?
A. I don't really remember, I mean, what--what--what was
going through my mind at that point as to--to answer that
question. Is that--
Q. Okay.
A. I'm sorry.
Q. Certainly, if you don't remember, that's a--that's a
good answer.
A. Okay.
Q. So you don't recall anything had really changed other
than you had heard secondhand that you weren't going to go
back. You have no independent recollection of anything else
other than what somebody told you that would have changed--
A. My recollection is--
Q. --changed your focus?
A. --that it was this--it was this conversation, what Linda
Tripp told me from whom this information was coming, the way
it was relayed to me that--that shifted everything that day.
Q. And you didn't feel it was necessary to go back to the
President and perhaps confront the President and say, ``why
am I not coming back, I want to come back?''
A. I mean, I had a discussion with the President, but I had
made a decision from that based on that information, and I
guess my--my experience of it coming up on a year from the
election, having not been brought back, that it probably
wasn't going to happen.
Q. But you--you did call the President about that time and
then--but the focus had been changed toward perhaps a job in
another location.
A. Yes and no. I didn't call him, but I, um--
Q. You called Betty--
A. --but we did have a discussion about that.
Q. You called Betty Currie, his secretary.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, and then through her, he contacted you and you had
a discussion?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you tell him at that time about the job?
A. I believe I testified to that, so that my testimony is
probably more accurate. The gist of it was, um, that I wanted
to move to New York and that I was accepting I wasn't going
to be able to come back to the White House, and I asked for
his help.
Q. Did you bring up Vernon Jordan's name as perhaps
somebody that could help you?
A. It's possible it was in that conversation.
Q. What was the President's comments back to you about your
deciding to go to New York?
A. I don't remember his exact comments. He was accepting of
the concept.
Q. In regards to your--your, uh, decision to search for a
job in New York, in your comments to the President, did he
ever tell you that that was good, that perhaps the Jones
lawyers could not easily find you in New York?
A. I'm sorry. I don't--I--I--
MR. CACHERIS: Excuse me again, Mr. Bryant. That's a
compound question. He could--she could answer it was good,
and then she could answer maybe the Jones lawyer couldn't get
her, but I think you'd want an answer to each question.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Okay. Let me ask it this way. There has been some
reference to that fact throughout the proceedings, and I
recall seeing something somewhere in your--your testimony
that you said it or he said it. Do you recall anything being
said about you going to Washington--to New York and that the
effect of that might be that you would be more difficult to
find?
A. I believe that might have been mentioned briefly on the
28th of December, but not as a reason to go to New York, but
as a possible outcome of being there. Does that--does that
make sense?
Q. It does.
A. Okay.
Q. What, uh--what would have been the context of that? And
we're jumping ahead to December the 28th, but what would have
been the context of that particular conversation about the
New York and being perhaps--the result being it might be
difficult to find you, or more difficult? What was the
context?
A. Um, I--I--if I remember correctly, it came sort of at
the tail-end of a very short discussion we had about the
Jones case.
Q. At this November the 11th meeting, did the President ask
you to prepare a list, sort of a wish list for jobs?
A. I'm sorry. Which--
Q. I'm sorry. Did I say October? We're back to the October
the 11th meeting. Did the President ask you to prepare a wish
list?
A. Okay. We haven't gone to the October 11th meeting yet.
I--I haven't said anything about that meeting yet.
Q. Okay.
A. The phone call was on the 9th.
Q. Okay, and you subsequently had a meeting, then, with the
President on the 11th?
A. Correct.
Q. Face--face-to-face meeting?
A. Correct.
Q. And at that meeting, did he suggest you give him a wish
list or Betty Currie a wish list?
A. Yes.
Q. Again, I asked a compound question there.
Who did he suggest you give the wish list to?
MR. CACHERIS: We're getting used to that.
MR. BRYANT: I'm getting good. I'm making my own objections
now.
[Laughter.]
THE WITNESS: Um, we sustain those. No, I'm sorry.
[Laughter.]
MR. BRYANT: I can do that, too. I'll be doing that in a
minute. Overruled. Okay.
THE WITNESS: Um, I--I believe he--he said I should get him
a list, and the implication was through Betty.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. And obviously you prepared a list of--
A. Correct.
Q. --the people you'd like to work for in New York City.
A. Correct.
Q. And you sent that list--
A. Yes.
Q. --to Betty Currie or to the President?
A. I sent it to Ms. Currie.
Q. And also during this time--and I'm probably going to
speed this up a little bit, but, uh, you did interview for
the job at the United Nations?
A. Yes.
Q. And, uh--and through a process of several months there,
or weeks at least, you did--made an offer to take a job at
the United Nations and eventually declined it. Is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you in early November have the occasion to meet with
Vernon Jordan about the job situation?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did you learn about that meeting?
A. I believe I asked Ms. Currie to check on the status of--
I guess of finding out if I could have this meeting, and then
she let me--she let me know to call Mr. Jordan's secretary?
Q. And you set up an appointment with Mr. Jordan, or did
she, Ms. Currie, do that?
A. No. I set up an appointment. I think that was after a
phone--well, I guess I don't--I don't know that, so sorry.
Q. But that appointment was November the 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to going to the meeting with Vernon Jordan, did
you tell the President that you had a meeting with Mr.
Jordan?
A. I don't think so. I don't remember.
Q. Did you carry any documents or any papers with you to
the meeting with Mr. Jordan?
A. Yes.
Q. What were those?
A. My resume and a list of public relations firms in New
York.
Q. Did Mr. Jordan ask you why you were there?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you say?
A. I was hoping to move to New York and that he could
assist me in securing a job there.
Q. Did he ask you why you wanted to leave Washington?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your answer?
A. I gave him the vanilla story of, um, that I--I think I--
I don't remember exactly what I said. I--I believe I've
testified to this. I think it was something about wanting to
get out of Washington.
Q. The vanilla story. You mean sort of an innocuous set of
reasons, not really the true reasons you wanted to leave?
A. Yes.
Q. And what were the true reasons you wanted to leave?
A. Because I couldn't go back to the White House.
Q. Did--did you think Mr. Jordan accepted--did you think he
would accept that vanilla story, or did you feel like he
understood the real story?
A. No, I felt he accepted it.
Q. Did Mr. Jordan tell you during this meeting that he had
already spoken with the President?
A. It was--I believe so.
Q. And that you had come highly recommended, I think?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he, Mr. Jordan, review your list of job preferences
and suggest anything?
[[Page S1217]]
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he suggest?
A. He said the names of the--he looked at the list of
public relations firms and I think sort of said, ``oh, I've
heard of them, I haven't heard of these people, have you
heard of so and so,'' that I hadn't heard of.
Q. Your meeting lasted about 20 minutes?
A. If that's what I've testified to, then I accept that.
Q. It is, or close to it. I know this is an approximation,
but thereabouts. You weren't there all day.
A. I had--well, I don't--I don't remember how long it was
right now. I know I've testified to that. So if I said 20
minutes, then--
Q. Did you have a conversation with the President on--about
a week later on November the 12th and by telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you indicate there you had spoken with Mr.
Jordan about a job?
A. Yes.
Q. After you met with Mr. Jordan, did you--did you have an
impression that you would get, uh--get a job, get favorable
results in your job search?
A. Yes.
Q. Did anything favorable happen to--in your job search
from that November the 5th, 1997, meeting until Thanksgiving?
A. No, but I believe Mr. Jordan was out of town for a week
or two.
Q. During the weeks after this November the 5th interview,
did you try to contact Mr. Jordan?
A. Yes.
Q. How?
A. First, I sent him a thank-you note for the initial
meeting, and I believe I placed some phone calls right before
Thanksgiving--maybe a phone call. I don't remember if it was
more than one.
Q. What--what happened with respect to the job search, uh,
through there, through Thanksgiving? Was there anything? I
mean, I know he--you said he was out of down, but did
anything, to your knowledge, occur? Could you see any results
up to Thanksgiving?
A. From my meeting with Mr. Jordan?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did you contact Betty Currie after you received no
response from Mr. Jordan?
A. Yes.
Q. And did she page you? I think you were in Los Angeles at
the time.
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. What--what did she tell you as a result of that
telephone call?
A. She asked me to place a call to Mr. Jordan, which I did.
Q. And this would have been, again, around November the
26th, shortly--well, around Thanksgiving?
A. It was before Thanksgiving.
Q. And I assume you found Mr. Jordan.
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he tell you?
A. That he was working on it.
Q. Did he tell you to call him back?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you indeed call him back
A. I didn't actually get ahold of him; he was out-of-town
that day. I think it was December 5th.
Q. Did you try to meet with the President during this time?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you do that?
A. I was a pest. I sent a note to Ms. Currie and asked her
to pass it along to the President, requesting that I meet
with him.
Q. Were you successful in having a meeting as a result of
those efforts?
A. I don't know if it was a result of those efforts, but
yes, I ended up having a meeting with the President.
Q. And when would that have been; what day?
A. On the 6th of December 1997.
Q. Again you are going through Betty Currie; is that,
again, the standard procedure at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go--I think you spoke also perhaps to Betty
Currie on December the 5th, the day before the meeting--
A. Yes.
Q. --and this was something about attending the President's
speech. Was that when that occurred--or the radio address, or
something? Does that ring any bells?
A. No.
Q. Did--you did attend the Christmas party that day--
A. Yes.
Q. --and the White House. And you saw the President?
A. Yes.
Q. Just socially, speak to him, and that's it?
A. Yes.
Q. Picture, handshaking, and that?
A. [Nodding head.]
Q. Okay. That's a yes?
A. Yes. Sorry.
Q. Prior to December 6th, 1997, had you purchased a
Christmas gift for the President?
A. Yes.
Q. Which was?
A. An antique standing cigar holder.
Q. And had you purchased any other additional gifts for
him?
A. Yes.
Q. And what were those?
A. Uh, a Starbucks mug that said ``Santa Monica''; a
necktie that I got in London; a little box--I call it a
``chochki''--from, uh--and an antique book on Theodore
Roosevelt.
Q. Was it your intention to, to carry those Christmas
presents to the President home that Saturday, December the
6th?
A. If I were to have a meeting with him, yes.
Q. Did you attempt to have a meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go through Betty Currie?
A. Yes. I sent her the letter to, to give to the President.
Q. And when you went to the White House that day, you also
attempted to, to have the meeting through calling Betty
Currie and telephoning her; I believe you had to go to--
A. Which day? I'm sorry.
Q. On the 6th.
A. No.
Q. The Saturday.
A. [No response.]
Q. No?
A. I--I attempted to give the presents to Betty, but I
didn't call and attempt to have a meeting there--well, I
guess I called in the morning, so that's not true--I'm sorry.
Yes, I called Ms. Currie in the morning trying to see if I
could see the President and apologize.
Q. And--were you--did you see the President, then, on the
6th?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us about that meeting--that was a long--was that,
uh--did you have a telephone conversation with him that day
also?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the long telephone conversation?
A. It--it was.
Q. Okay. I think there has been some indication it may have
been 56 minutes, something approximating an hour-long
conversation; does that sound right?
A. Right. That would--that might include some conversation
time with Ms. Currie as well.
Q. Okay. Was he interrupted by Ms. Currie--could you tell--
did he have to take a break from the telephone call to talk
to Ms. Currie, or do you recall any, any--
A. I don't recall that.
Q. --do you recall any breaks to talk to anybody else?
A. I don't recall that. Doesn't mean it didn't happen; I
just don't remember it.
Q. What else did you--did you arrange in that telephone
conversation, or did he invite you in that telephone
conversation to come to the White House that day?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What happened during, during that conversation in terms
of--I understand that it was again an emotional day, some
sort of a word fight; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell me--he was, uh--again, to perhaps save
some time--he was angry about an earlier incident, and, uh,
he felt like you were intruding on his lawyer time?
A. Uh, he was upset that I hadn't accepted that he just
couldn't see me that day.
Q. And what was your response to that?
A. Probably not positive. Uh, that's why it was a fight.
Q. Again, I want to be careful that I don't put words in
your mouth, but you were dealing with this relationship from
an emotional standpoint of wanting to spend time with him--
A. Yes.
Q. --not as President, but as a man?
A. Correct.
Q. And this was at a point when you didn't feel like you
were spending enough time with him?
A. Correct.
Q. And he obviously felt he had to do other things, too,
talk to lawyers and do those kinds of things--be the
President--is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, was some of this discussion that we term
``the fight,'' was that over the telephone?
A. Yes. It was all over the telephone.
Q. So by the time you arrived and had the face-to-face
meeting with him, that was over?
A. Correct.
Q. Was that during the time that you exchanged--exchanged
some of the Christmas presents with him?
A. In--in the meeting?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes. I gave him my Christmas presents.
Q. Did you discuss the job search with him also at that
time?
A. I believe I mentioned it.
Q. Did you tell him that, uh, your job search with Mr.
Jordan was not going well?
A. I don't know if I used those words. I don't, I don't
remember exactly--
Q. If your grand jury testimony said yes--I mean, words to
that effect--that would--you could have used those words if
they're in your grand jury--
A. If my grand jury testimony says that--if that's what I
said in my grand jury testimony, then I accept that.
Q. I'm not trying to--I'm not trying to trick you.
A. Okay.
Q. Did he make any comment to you about what he might do to
aid in your job search at that time, if you recall?
A. I think he--I think he said, oh, let me see about it,
let me see what I can do--his usual.
Q. Did, uh, did the President say anything to you at that
time about your name appearing on a witness list in the Paula
Jones case?
A. No.
Q. Did you later learn that your name had appeared on such
a list?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you later learn that that witness list had been
faxed to the White House--
[[Page S1218]]
to the President's lawyers on December the 5th?
A. Much later, as in last year.
Q. Okay. Yes--that's what I mean--later.
A. I, I mean--
Q. Yes.
A. --post this investigation.
Q. Okay. All right. Let's go forward another week or so to
December the 11th and a lunch that you had with Vernon
Jordan, I believe, in his office.
A. Yes.
Q. How did--how was that meeting set up.
A. Through his secretary.
Q. Did you instigate that, or did he call through his
secretary?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What was the purpose of that meeting?
A. Uh, it was to discuss my job situation.
Q. And what, what--how was that discussed?
A. Uh, Mr. Jordan gave me a list of three names and
suggested that I contact these people in a letter that I
should cc him on, and that's what I did.
Q. Did he ask you to copy him on the letters that you sent
out?
A. Yes.
Q. During this meeting, did he make any comments about your
status as a friend of the President?
A. Yes.
Q. What--what did he say?
A. In one of his remarks, he said something about me being
a friend of the President.
Q. And did you respond?
A. Yes.
Q. How?
A. I said that I didn't, uh--I think I--my grand
jury testimony, I know I talked about this, so it's
probably more accurate. My memory right now is I said
something about, uh, seeing him more as, uh, a man than as
a President, and I treated him accordingly.
Q. Did you express your frustration to Mr. Jordan with, uh,
with the President?
A. I expressed that sometimes I had frustrations with him,
yes.
Q. And what was his response to you about, uh--after you
talked about the President?
A. Uh, he sort of jokingly said to me, You know what your
problem is, and don't deny it--you're in love with him. But
it was a sort of light-hearted nature.
Q. Did you--did you have a response to that?
A. I probably blushed or giggled or something.
Q. Do you still have feelings for the President?
A. I have mixed feelings.
Q. What, uh--maybe you could tell us a little bit more
about what those mixed feelings are.
A. I think what you need to know is that my grand jury
testimony is truthful irrespective of whatever those mixed
feelings are in my testimony today.
Q. I know in your grand jury you mentioned some of your
feelings that you felt after he spoke publicly about the
relationship, but let me ask you more about the positive--you
said there were mixed feelings. What about--do you still, uh,
respect the President, still admire the President?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still appreciate what he is doing for this
country as the President?
A. Yes.
Q. Sometime back in December of 1997, in the morning of
December the 17th, did you receive a call from the President?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the purpose of that call? What did you talk
about?
A. It was threefold--first, to tell me that Ms. Currie's
brother had been killed in a car accident; second, to tell me
that my name was on a witness list for the Paula Jones case;
and thirdly, he mentioned the Christmas present he had for
me.
Q. This telephone call was somewhere in the early morning
hours of 2 o'clock to 2:30.
A. Correct.
Q. Did it surprise you that he called you so late?
A. No.
Q. Was this your first notice of your name being on the
Paula Jones witness list?
A. Yes.
Q. I realize he, he commented about some other things, but
I do want to focus on the witness list.
A. Okay.
Q. Did he say anything to you about how he felt concerning
this witness list?
A. He said it broke his heart that, well, that my name was
on the witness list.
Can I take a break, please? I'm sorry.
SENATOR DeWINE: Sure, sure. We'll take a 5-minute break at
this point.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the end of Videotape Number 1
in the deposition of Monica S. Lewinsky. We are going off the
record at 10:56 a.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the beginning of Videotape
Number 2 in the deposition of Monica S. Lewinsky. The time is
11:10 a.m.
SENATOR DeWINE: We are now back on the record.
I will advise the House Managers that they have used one
hour and 8 minutes.
Mr. Bryant, you may proceed.
MR. BRYANT: Thank you.
By MR. BRYANT:
Q. Did--did we get your response? We were talking about the
discussion you were having with the President over the
telephone, early morning of the December 17th phone call, and
he had, uh, mentioned that it broke his heart that you were
on that list.
A. Correct.
Q. And I think you were about to comment on that further,
and then you need a break.
A. No.
Q. No.
A. I just wanted to be able to focus--I know this is an
important date, so I felt I need a few moments to be able to
focus on it.
Q. And you're comfortable now with that, with your--you are
ready to talk about that?
A. Comfortable, I don't know, but I'm ready to talk about.
Q. Well, I mean comfortable that you can focus on it.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Good. Now, with this discussion of the fact that your
name appeared as a witness, had you--had you been asleep that
night when the phone rang?
A. Yes.
Q. So were you wide awake by this point? It's the President
calling you, so I guess you're--you wake up.
A. I wouldn't say wide awake.
Q. He expressed to you that your name--you know, again, you
talked about some other things--but he told you your name was
on the list.
A. Correct.
Q. What was your reaction to that?
A. I was scared.
Q. What other discussion did you have in regard to the fact
that your name was on the list? You were scared; he was
disappointed, or it broke his heart. What other discussion
did you have?
A. Uh, I believe he said that, uh--and these are not
necessarily direct quotes, but to the best of my memory, that
he said something about that, uh, just because my name was on
the list didn't necessarily mean I'd be subpoenaed; and at
some point, I asked him what I should do if I received a
subpoena. He said I should, uh, I should let Ms. Currie
know. Uh--
Q. Did he say anything about an affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that, uh, that I could possibly file an
affidavit if I--if I were subpoenaed, that I could possibly
file an affidavit maybe to avoid being deposed.
Q. How did he tell you you would avoid being deposed by
filing an affidavit?
A. I don't think he did.
Q. You just accepted that statement?
A. [Nodding head.]
Q. Yes?
A. Yes, yes. Sorry.
Q. Are you, uh--strike that. Did he make any representation
to you about what you could say in that affidavit or--
A. No.
Q. What did you understand you would be saying in that
affidavit to avoid testifying?
A. Uh, I believe I've testified to this in the grand jury.
To the best of my recollection, it was, uh--to my mind came--
it was a range of things. I mean, it could either be, uh,
something innocuous or could go as far as having to deny the
relationship. Not being a lawyer nor having gone to law
school, I thought it could be anything.
Q. Did he at that point suggest one version or the other
version?
A. No. I didn't even mention that, so there, there wasn't a
further discussion--there was no discussion of what would be
in an affidavit.
Q. When you say, uh, it would be--it could have been
something where the relationship was denied, what was your
thinking at that point?
A. I--I--I think I don't understand what you're asking me.
I'm sorry.
Q. Well, based on prior relations with the President, the
concocted stories and those things like that, did this come
to mind? Was there some discussion about that, or did it come
to your mind about these stories--the cover stories?
A. Not in connection with the--not in connection with the
affidavit.
Q. How would--was there any discussion of how you would
accomplish preparing or filing an affidavit at that point?
A. No.
Q. Why--why didn't you want to testify? Why would not you--
why would you have wanted to avoid testifying?
A. First of all, I thought it was nobody's business. Second
of all, I didn't want to have anything to do with Paula Jones
or her case. And--I guess those two reasons.
Q. You--you have already mentioned that you were not a
lawyer and you had not been to law school, those kinds of
things. Did, uh, did you understand when you--the potential
legal problems that you could have caused yourself
by allowing a false affidavit to be filed with the court,
in a court proceeding?
A. During what time--I mean--I--can you be--I'm sorry--
Q. At this point, I may ask it again at later points, but
the night of the telephone--
A. Are you--are you still referring to December 17th?
Q. The night of the phone call, he's suggesting you could
file an affidavit. Did you appreciate the implications of
filing a false affidavit with the court?
A. I don't think I necessarily thought at that point it
would have to be false, so, no, probably not. I don't--I
don't remember having any thoughts like that, so I imagine I
would remember something like that, and I don't, but--
Q. Did you know what an affidavit was?
A. Sort of.
Q. Of course, you're talking at that time by telephone to
the President, and he's--and
[[Page S1219]]
he is a lawyer, and he taught law school--I don't know--did
you know that? Did you know he was a lawyer?
A. I--I think I knew it, but it wasn't something that was
present in my, in my thoughts, as in he's a lawyer, he's
telling me, you know, something.
Q. Did the, did the President ever tell you, caution you,
that you had to tell the truth in an affidavit?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. It would have been against his interest in that lawsuit
for you to have told the truth, would it not?
A. I'm not really comfortable--I mean, I can tell you what
would have been in my best interest, but I--
Q. But you didn't file the affidavit for your best
interest, did you?
A. Uh, actually, I did.
Q. To avoid testifying.
A. Yes.
Q. But had you testified truthfully, you would have had
no--certainly, no legal implications--it may have been
embarrassing, but you would have not had any legal problems,
would you?
A. That's true.
Q. Did you discuss anything else that night in terms of--I
would draw your attention to the cover stories. I have
alluded to that earlier, but, uh, did you talk about cover
story that night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was said?
A. Uh, I believe that, uh, the President said something--
you can always say you were coming to see Betty or bringing
me papers.
Q. I think you've testified that you're sure he said that
that night. You are sure he said that that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was that in connection with the affidavit?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. Why would he have told you you could always say that?
A. I don't know.
Mr. BURTON: Objection. You're asking her to speculate on
someone else's testimony.
MR. BRYANT: Let me make a point here. I've been very
patient in trying to get along, but as I alluded to earlier,
and I said I am not going to hold a hard line to this, but I
don't think the President's--the witness' lawyers ought to be
objecting to this testimony. If there's an objection here, it
should come from the White House side, nor should they be--
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, why don't you rephrase the
question?
MR. BRYANT: Do we have a clear ruling on whether they can
object?
SENATOR DeWINE: We'll go off the record for a moment.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 11:20 a.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on the record at 11:30
a.m.
SENATOR DeWINE: We are now back on the record.
It's our opinion that counsel for Ms. Lewinsky do have the
right to make objections. We would ask them to be as short
and concise as humanly possible. So we will now proceed.
Mr. Bryant?
MR. BRYANT: Thank you, Senator.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Let's kind of bring this back together again, and I'll
try to ask sharper questions and avoid these objections.
We're at that point that we've got a telephone conversation
in the morning with you and the President, and he has among
other things mentioned to you that your name is on the Jones
witness list. He has also mentioned to you that perhaps you
could file an affidavit to avoid possible testifying in that
case. Is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And he has also, I think, now at the point that we were
in our questioning, referenced the cover story that you and
he had had, that perhaps you could say that you were coming
to my office to deliver papers or to see Betty Currie; is
that right?
A. Correct. It was from the entire relationship, that
story.
Q. Now, when he alluded to that cover story, was that
instantly familiar to you?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew what he was talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. And why was this familiar to you?
A. Because it was part of the pattern of the relationship.
Q. Had you actually had to use elements of this cover story
in the past?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Did the President ever tell you what to say if anyone
asked you about telephone conversations that you had had
with him?
A. Are we--are we still focused on December 17th?
Q. No, no.
A. Okay.
Q. It did not have to be that night. Did he ever?
A. If I could just--I--I'm pretty date-oriented, so if you
could just be more specific with the date. If we're staying
on a date or leaving that date, it would just help me. I'm
sorry.
Q. Well, my question was phrased did he ever do that, but--
A. Okay.
Q. Well, I--I'm sorry. I'm playing guessing games with you.
Was there a conversation on March 29th of 1997 when the
President told you he thought perhaps his telephone
conversations were being tapped or taped--either way, or
both--by a foreign embassy?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there some reference to some sort of cover story
there in the event that his line was tapped?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was that?
A. That--I think, if I remember it correctly, it was that
we--that he knew that we were sort of engaging in those types
of conversations, uh, knowing that someone was listening, so
that it was not for the purposes that it might have seemed.
Q. Did you find it a little strange that he would express
concern about possible eavesdropping and still persist in
these calls to you?
A. I don't think phone calls of that nature occurred and
happened right after, or soon after that discussion. I think
it was quite a few months until that resumed.
Q. I think my question was more did you not find it a
little strange that he felt that perhaps his phone was being
tapped and conversations taped by a foreign embassy, and he--
A. I--I thought it was strange, but if--I mean, I wasn't
going to question what he was saying to me.
Q. But that he also continued to make the calls--you're
saying he didn't make any calls after that?
A. No. My understanding was it was referencing a certain
type of phone call, certain nature of phone call, uh, and
those--
Q. Let me direct your attention back to a point I did not
mention a couple--a few days before the December--early
December telephone call, the lengthy telephone call from the
President. We had talked about how that was a heated
conversation.
A. Correct.
Q. At--did at some point during that telephone
conversation--did the tone--did the President's tone change
to a more receptive, friendly conversation?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why that happened?
A. No, nor do I remember whose tone changed first. I mean,
we made up, so--
Q. Okay. Now let me go back again to the December 11th
date--I'm sorry--the 17th. This is the conversation in the
morning. What else--was there anything else you talked about
in terms of--other than your name being on the list and the
affidavit and the cover story?
A. Yes. I had--I had had my own thoughts on why and how he
should settle the case, and I expressed those thoughts to
him. And at some point, he mentioned that he still had this
Christmas present for me and that maybe he would ask Mrs.
Currie to come in that weekend, and I said not to because she
was obviously going to be in mourning because of her brother.
Q. In--in that--in that relationship with the President, I
think you have expressed in your testimony somewhere that you
weren't necessarily jealous of those types of people like
Kathleen Willey or Paula Jones, and perhaps you didn't even
believe those stories occurred as--as they alleged.
A. That's correct. I don't--I don't know, jealous or not
jealous. I don't think I've testified to my feelings of
jealousy, but the latter half of the question is true.
Q. I--I saw it. I mean, it's not a major point. I thought I
saw that in your testimony, that particular word.
A. Okay. If I said that, then I--I don't.
Q. Was it your belief that the Paula Jones case was not a
valid lawsuit? Was that part of that discussion that night,
or your strategy?
A. Uh, can I separate that--that into two questions?
Q. Any way, any way you want to.
A. Okay. I don't believe it was a valid lawsuit, and I
don't think whether I believed it was a valid lawsuit or not
was the topic of the conversation.
Q. Okay, that's a fair answer.
You believe the President's version of the Paula Jones
incident?
A. Is that relevant to--
Q. I--I just asked you the question.
A. I don't believe Paula Jones' version of the story.
Q. Okay, good. That's a fair answer.
You have testified previously that you tried to maintain
secrecy regarding this relationship--and we're talking about
obviously with the President. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And to preserve the secrecy and I guess advance this
cover story, you would bring papers to the President and
always use Betty Currie for the excuse for you to be WAVE'd
in. Is that right?
A. Papers when I was working at the White House and Mrs.
Currie after I left the White House. So Mrs. Currie wasn't
involved when I was working at the White House.
Q. Were these papers you carried in to the President--were
they--were they business documents, or were they more
personal papers from you to him?
A. They--they weren't business documents.
Q. So, officially, you were not carrying in official
papers?
A. Correct.
Q. You were carrying in personal papers that would not have
entitled you ordinarily to go see the President?
A. Correct.
Q. When--in this procedure where Betty Currie was always
the one that WAVE'd you in to the White House--and I--I don't
know if the people who may be watching this deposition, the
Senators, understand that the WAVES process is just the--to
give the
[[Page S1220]]
guards the okay for you to come in. Is that a short synopsis?
A. I'm not really versed on--
Q. I'm not either. You know more than I do, probably, since
you worked there, but--
A. Well, I know you had to go, you had to type in a thing
in at WAVES, and now you have to give a Social Security,
birth date, have to show ID.
Q. Is there a record kept of that?
A. I believe so.
Q. Was it always Betty Currie that WAVE'd you in to the--
access to the White House? I'm talking about now after you
left and went to work at the Pentagon.
A. No.
Q. Other people did that?
A. There were other reasons that I came to the White House
at times.
Q. Did you ever ask the President if he would WAVE you in?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ever do that?
A. No, not to my--not to my knowledge.
Q. Was there a reason? Did he express anything to you why
he would or would not?
A. Yes. He said that, uh--I believe he said something about
that there's a specific list made of people that he requests
to come in and--and there are people who have access to that
list.
Q. So, obviously, he didn't want your name being on that
list?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, some of those people--
A. I think--well, that's my understanding.
Q. Would some of those people be the people that worked
outside his office, Ms. Lieberman and those--those folks?
A. I--I believe so, but I'm not really sure.
Q. Did you not want those people to know that you were
inside the White House?
A. I didn't.
Q. Why is that?
A. Because they didn't like me.
Q. Would they have objected, do you think--if you know.
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you work with Betty Currie on occasions to--to get
in to see the President, perhaps bypass some of these people?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would be another way that you would conceal the
meeting with the President, by using Betty Currie to get you
in?
A. I--I think, yes, be cautious of it.
Q. Did--well, I think we've covered that, about some
papers, and I think we've covered that after you left your
job inside the White House with Legislative Affairs and went
to the Pentagon, you developed a story, a cover story to the
effect that you were going to see Betty, that's how you would
come in officially?
A. Correct.
Q. And during that time that you were at the Pentagon, you
would more likely visit him on weekends or during the week?
Which would--which would--
A. Weekends.
Q. Weekends. And why--why the weekends?
A. First, I think he had less work, and second of all,
there were--I believe there were less people around.
Q. Now, whose idea was it for you to come on weekends?
A. I believe it was the President's.
Q. When you--when the President was in his office, was your
purpose to go there and see him? If he was in the office, you
would go see him?
A. What--I'm sorry.
Q. No--that's not clear. I'll withdraw that question.
Was Ms. Currie, the President's secretary--was she in the
loop, so to speak, in keeping this relationship and how you
got in and out of the White House, keeping that quiet?
A. I think I actually remember reading part of my grand
jury testimony about this and that it was more specific in
that she was in the loop about my friendship with the
President, but I just want to not necessarily--there was a
clarification, I believe, in that about knowledge of the
complete relationship or not. So--
Q. She would help with the gifts and notes and things like
that--the passing?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you agree that these cover stories that you've
just testified to, if they were told to the attorneys for
Paula Jones, that they would be misleading to them and not be
the whole story, the whole truth?
A. They would--yes, I guess misleading. They were literally
true, but they would be misleading, so incomplete.
Q. As I understand your testimony, too, the cover stories
were reiterated to you by the President that night on the
telephone--
A. Correct.
Q. --and after he told you you would be a witness--or your
name was on the witness list, I should say?
A. Correct.
Q. And did you understand that since your name was on the
witness list that there would be a possibility that you could
be subpoenaed to testify in the Paula Jones case?
A. I think I understood that I could be subpoenaed, and
there was a possibility of testifying. I don't know if I
necessarily thought it was a subpoena to testify, but--
Q. Were you in fact subpoenaed to testify?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was what--
A. December 19th, 1997.
Q. December 19th.
Now, you have testified in the grand jury. I think your
closing comments was that no one ever asked you to lie, but
yet in that very conversation of December the 17th, 1997 when
the President told you that you were on the witness list, he
also suggested that you could sign an affidavit and use
misleading cover stories. Isn't that correct?
A. Uh--well, I--I guess in my mind, I separate necessarily
signing affidavit and using misleading cover stories. So,
does--
Q. Well, those two--
A. Those three events occurred, but they don't--they
weren't linked for me.
Q. But they were in the same conversation, were they not?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Did you understand in the context of the conversation
that you would deny the--the President and your relationship
to the Jones lawyers?
A. Do you mean from what was said to me or--
Q. In the context of that--in the context of that
conversation, December the 17th--
A. I--I don't--I didn't--
Q. Okay. Let me ask it. Did you understand in the context
of the telephone conversation with the President that early
morning of December the 17th--did you understand that you
would deny your relationship with the President to the Jones
lawyers through use of these cover stories?
A. From what I learned in that--oh, through those cover
stories, I don't know, but from what I learned in that
conversation, I thought to myself I knew I would deny the
relationship.
Q. And you would deny the relationship to the Jones
lawyers?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. Good.
A. If--if that's what it came to.
Q. And in fact you did deny the relationship to the Jones
lawyers in the affidavit that you signed under penalty of
perjury; is that right?
A. I denied a sexual relationship.
Q. The President did not in that conversation on December
the 17th of 1997 or any other conversation, for that matter,
instruct you to tell the truth; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And prior to being on the witness list, you--you both
spoke--
A. Well, I guess any conversation in relation to the Paula
Jones case. I can't say that any conversation from the--the
entire relationship that he didn't ever say, you know,
``Are you mad? Tell me the truth.'' So--
Q. And prior to being on the witness list, you both spoke
about denying this relationship if asked?
A. Yes. That was discussed.
Q. He would say something to the effect that--or you would
say that--you--you would deny anything if it ever came up,
and he would nod or say that's good, something to that
effect; is that right?
A. Yes, I believe I testified to that.
Q. Let me shift gears just a minute and ask you about--and
I'm going to be delicate about this because I'm conscious of
people here in the room and my--my own personal concerns--but
I want to refer you to the first so-called salacious
occasion, and I'm not going to get into the details. I'm
not--
A. Can--can we--can you call it something else?
Q. Okay.
A. I mean, this is--this is my relationship--
Q. What would you like to call it?
A. --so, I mean, is--
Q. This is the--or this was--
A. It was my first encounter with the President, so I don't
really see it as my first salacious--that's not what this
was.
Q. Well, that's kind of been the word that's been picked up
all around. So--
A. Right.
Q. --let's stay on this first--
A. Encounter, maybe?
Q. Encounter, okay.
A. Okay.
Q. So we all know what we're talking about. You had several
of these encounters, perhaps 10 or 11 of these encounters; is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the first one on November the
15th, 1995, you have testified to a set of facts where the
President actually touched you in certain areas--is that
right--and that's--that's where I want to go. That's as far
as I want to go with that question.
MR. CACHERIS: If that's as far as it goes, we will not
object--
MR. BRYANT: Okay.
MR. CACHERIS: --and if it goes any further, we will object.
MR. BRYANT: Okay.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. You have testified to that?
A. Yes.
Q. And I have the excerpts out, and I don't--but they've
been adopted and affirmed as true. So I'm not going to get--
get you looking at--have you read those excerpts.
A. I appreciate that.
Q. Now, in the--in later testimony before the grand jury,
you were given a definition, and in fact it was the same
definition that was used in the Paula Jones lawsuit, of
``sexual relations.'' Do you recall the--
A. So I've read.
Q. Yes.
A. I was not shown that definition.
Q. But you were asked a question that incorporated that
definition.
A. Not prior to this whole--not prior to the Independent
Counsel getting involved.
Q. But--no--it was the Independent Counsels themselves who
asked you this question.
A. Right. Oh, so you're--you're saying in the grand jury, I
was shown a definition of--
[[Page S1221]]
Q. Right.
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And you admitted in that answer to that question that
the conduct that you were involved in, the encounter of
November the 15th, 1995, fit within that definition of
``sexual relations''?
A. The second encounter of that evening did.
Q. Right.
And were there other similar encounters later on with the
President, not that day, but other occasions that would have
likewise fit into that definition of ``sexual relations'' in
the Paula Jones case?
A. Yes. And--yes.
Q. There was more than one occasion where that occurred?
A. Correct.
Q. So, if the President testifies that he did not--he was
not guilty of having a sexual relationship under the Paula
Jones definition even, then that testimony is not truthful,
is it?
MR. CACHERIS: Objection. She should not be called upon to
testify what was in the mind of another person. She's
testifying to the facts, and she has given the facts.
MR. BRYANT: I would ask that she answer the question.
SENATOR DeWINE: Go ahead.
SENATOR LEAHY: The objection is noted for the record.
SENATOR DeWINE: The objection is noted. She may answer the
question.
THE WITNESS: I--I really--
SENATOR LEAHY: If she can.
THE WITNESS: --don't feel comfortable characterizing
whether what he said was truthful or not truthful. I know
I've testified to what I believe is true.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Well, truth is not a wandering standard.
A. Well--
Q. I would hope not. But you have testified, as I've told
you, that what you and he did together on November the 15th,
1995 fit that definition of the Paula Jones, and you've
indicated that there were other occasions that likewise--
A. Yes, sir.
Q. --that that occurred.
But now the President has indicated as a part of his
specific defense--he has filed an answer with this Senate
denying that this occurred, that he did these actions.
A. I know. I'm not trying to be difficult, but there is a
portion of that definition that says, you know, with intent,
and I don't feel comfortable characterizing what someone
else's intent was.
I can tell you that I--my memory of this relationship and
what I remember happened fell within that definition.
If you want to--I don't know if there's another way to
phrase that, but I'm just not comfortable commenting on
someone else's intent or state of mind or what they thought.
Q. Let's move forward to December the 19th, 1997, at that
point you made reference to earlier.
A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the date again? I'm sorry.
Q. Yes. December the 19th, 1997.
A. Okay, sorry.
Q. At that point where you testified that you received a
subpoena in the Paula Jones case, and that was, of course, on
December the 19th, 1997.
Do you recall the specific time of day and where you were
when you were served with the subpoena?
A. I was actually handed the subpoena at the Metro entrance
of the Pentagon--at the Pentagon, and the time--I think it
was around 4:30--4--I--I--if I've testified to something
different, then, I accept whatever I testified to, closer to
the date. Sometime in the late afternoon.
Q. Did they call you, and you had to come out of your
office and go outside--
A. Correct.
Q. --and do that?
Okay. And what did you do after you accepted service of the
subpoena?
A. I started crying.
Q. Did he just give it to you and walk away, or did he give
you any kind of explanation?
A. I think I made a stink. I think I was trying to hope
that he would convey to the Paula Jones attorneys that I
didn't know why they were doing this, and this is ridiculous,
and he said something or another, there is a check here for
witness fee. And I said I don't want their stinking money,
and so--
Q. What did you do after, after you got through the
emotional part?
A. I went to a pay phone, and I called Mr. Jordan.
Q. Any reason you went to a pay phone, and why did you call
Mr. Jordan? Two questions, please.
A. First is because my office in the Pentagon was probably
a room this size and has--let's see, one, two, three, four--
four other people in it, and there wasn't much privacy. So
that I think that's obvious why I wouldn't want to discuss it
there.
And the second question was why Mr. Jordan--
Q. Why did you call Mr. Jordan; yes.
A. Because I couldn't call Mrs. Currie because it was--I
hadn't expected to be subpoenaed that soon. So she was
grieving with her brother's passing away, and I didn't know
who else to turn to. So--
Q. And what--what occurred with that conversation with Mr.
Jordan?
A. Well, I remember that--that he couldn't understand me
because I was crying. So he kept saying: ``I don't understand
what you're saying. I don't understand what you're saying.''
And I just was crying and crying and crying. And so all I
remember him saying was: ``Oh, just come here at 5 o'clock.''
So I did.
Q. You went to see Mr. Jordan, and you were inside his
office after 5 o'clock, and you did--is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were--were you interrupted, in the office?
A. Yes. He received a phone call.
Q. And you testified that you didn't know who that was that
called?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you excuse yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. What--after you came back in, what--what occurred? Did
he tell you who he had been talking to?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What happened next?
A. I know I've testified about this--
Q. Yes.
A. --so I stand by that testimony, and my recollection
right now is when I came back in the room, I think shortly
after he had placed a phone call to--to Mr. Carter's office,
and told me to come to his office at 10:30 Monday morning.
Q. Did you know who Mr. Carter was?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Jordan tell you who he was?
A. No--I don't remember.
Q. Did you understand he was going to be your attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you express any concerns about the--the subpoena?
A. I think that happened before the phone call came.
Q. Okay, but did you express concerns about the subpoena?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And what were those concerns?
A. In general, I think I was just concerned about being
dragged into this, and I was concerned because the subpoena
had called for a hatpin, that I turn over a hatpin, and that
was an alarm to me.
Q. How--in what sense was it--in what sense was it an alarm
to you?
A. The hatpin being on the subpoena was evidence to me that
someone had given that information to the Paula Jones people.
Q. What did Mr. Jordan say about the subpoena?
A. That it was standard.
Q. Did he have any--did he have any comment about the
specificity of the hatpin?
A. No.
Q. And did you--
A. He just kept telling me to calm down.
Q. Did you raise that concern with Mr. Jordan?
A. I don't remember if--if I've testified to it, then yes.
If--I don't remember right now.
Q. Did--would you have remembered then if he made any
comment or answer about the hatpin?
A. I mean, I think I would.
Q. And you don't remember?
A. I--I remember him saying something that it was--you
know, calm down, it's a standard subpoena or vanilla
subpoena, something like that.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Jordan to call the President and advise
him of the subpoena?
A. I think so, yes. I asked him to inform the President. I
don't know if it was through telephone or not.
Q. And you did that because the President had asked you to
make sure you let Betty know that?
A. Well, sure. With Betty not being in the office, I
couldn't--there wasn't anyone else that I could call to get
through to him.
Q. Did Mr. Jordan say to you when he might see the
President next?
A. I believe he said he would see him that evening at a
holiday reception.
Q. Did Mr. Jordan during that meeting make an inquiry about
the nature of the relationship between you and the President?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What was that inquiry?
A. I don't remember the exact wording of the questions, but
there were two questions, and I think they were something
like did you have sex with the President or did he--and if--
or did he ask for it or some--something like that.
Q. Did you--what did you suspect at that point with these
questions from Mr. Jordan in terms of did he know or not know
about this?
A. Well, I wasn't really sure. I mean, two things. I think
there is--I know I've testified to this, that there was
another component to all of this being Linda Tripp and her--
what she might have led me to believe or led me to think and
how that might have characterized how I was perceiving the
situation.
I--I sort of felt that I didn't know if he was asking me as
what are you going to say because I--I don't know these
answer to these questions, or he was asking me as I know the
answer to these questions and what are you going to say. So,
either way, for me, the answer was no and no.
Q. And that's just what I wanted to ask you--you did answer
no to both of those, but--
A. Yes.
Q. --as you explained--you didn't mention this directly,
but you mentioned in some of your earlier testimony about it,
that this was kind of a wink and--you thought this might be a
wink-and-nod conversation, where he really knew what was
going on, but--
[[Page S1222]]
A. Well, I think that's what I just said.
Q. --he was testing you to see what you would say?
A. --that I wasn't--I--that was one of the--that was one of
the things that went through my mind. I mean, it was not--I
think that's what I just testified to, didn't I?
Q. You didn't use the term ``wink-and-nod,'' though.
A. Oh.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Jordan during
that meeting about the specifics of an affidavit?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if the subject of an affidavit even came up?
A. I don't think so.
Q. What happened next? Is that when he made the call to Mr.
Carter, after this conversation?
A. No. He made the call to Mr.--I think--well, I think he
made the call to Mr. Carter, uh, shortly after I came back
into the room, but I could be wrong.
Q. And then the meeting concluded after that--after the
appointment was set up with Mr. Carter, the meeting
concluded?
A. Yes.
SENATOR DeWINE: Mr. Bryant, we're going to need to break
sometime in the next 5 minutes. Is this a good time, or do
you want to complete--
MR. BRYANT: This is a good time.
SENATOR DeWINE: Okay. We'll take a 5-minute break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 12:04 p.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on the record at 12:16
p.m.
SENATOR DeWINE: We are back on the record.
Let me advise House Managers that they have consumed one
hour and 54 minutes.
Mr. Bryant, you may proceed.
MR. BRYANT: Thank you, sir.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. Ms. Lewinsky, let me just cover a couple of quick
points, and then I'll move on to another area, at least the
next meeting with Mr. Jordan and eventual meeting with Mr.
Carter.
Back when issues of--we were discussing the issues of cover
stories, uh, would you tell me about the, uh, code name with
Betty Currie, the President's secretary and how that worked
in terms of the use--I guess the word ``Kay,'' the name
``Kay,'' and were there other code names, and when did this
start?
A. Sure. First, let me say there's--from my experience with
working with Independent Counsel on this subject area,
there--my initial memory of things and then what I came to
learn from, from other evidence, I think, are sort of two
different things. So I initially hadn't remembered when that
had happened or what had happened.
The name ``Kay'' was used because Betty and I first came to
know each other and know--or, I guess I came to know of Mrs.
Currie through Walter Kaye, who was a family friend, and I
think that that--I don't remember when we started using it,
but I know that by January at some point--by let's just say
January, I think, 12th or 13th, we were doing that. So I know
I was beyond paranoid at this point.
Q. Was ``Kay'' your code name, so to speak?
A. I believe--yes, yes. So she was ``Kay'' and I was
``Kay.''
Q. So any time, uh--not any time--so you used the ``Kay''
name interchangeably between the two--just between the two of
you?
A. Just for paging messages.
Q. And, uh, when we're talking about that Ms. Currie would
WAVE you into the White House, would that occur when the
President was there? I mean, you went in--
A. There--there were times that I went to see Mrs. Currie
when the President wasn't there.
Q. Right. And she would WAVE you in.
A. Correct.
Q. And there were times other people WAVE'd you in when the
President wasn't there?
A. Correct.
Q. But when the President was there, and you were going to
see the President, Ms. Currie was the one that always WAVE'd
you in?
A. Yes, and I think, unless--maybe on the occasions of the
radio address or it was an official function.
Q. Now, I think we talked a little bit about this. During
your December the 19th meeting with Mr. Jordan, uh, he did
schedule you a time to meet, uh, and introduce you to Mr.
Carter?
A. Correct.
Q. And that--when was that meeting with Mr. Carter
scheduled?
A. Uh, I believe for--it was Monday morning. I think it was
11 o'clock, around--sometime around that time.
Q. And my notes say that would have been December the 22nd,
1997.
A. Correct.
Q. Did you, uh, call to meet him earlier, and if so, why?
A. Yes. I had--I had had some concerns over the weekend
that I didn't know if--if Mr. Jordan knew about the
relationship or didn't know about the relationship. I was
concerned about--I'm sure you can understand that I was
dealing with a set of facts that were very different from
what the President knew about being pulled into this case in
that I had, in fact, disclosed information. So I was very
paranoid, and, uh, I, uh, I--I was trying to--trying to see
what Mr. Jordan knew was--was trying to inform him, was
trying to just get a better grasp of what was going on.
Is that--is that clear? No?
Q. You were--you were worried that Mr. Jordan didn't have
a--did not have a grasp of what was really going on?
A. Correct.
Q. And that would be in terms of actually knowing the real
relationship between you and the President?
A. Correct.
Q. So how did you attempt to correct that?
A. Well, I--I sort of--I think the way it came up was I
said, uh--I think I said to Mr. Jordan--I know I've testified
to this, uh, that--something about what about if someone
overheard the phone calls that I had with him. And Mr.
Jordan, I believe, said something like: So what? The
President's allowed to call people.
And then--well.
Q. Now, was this at a meeting on December the 22nd, before
you went to see Mr. Carter?
A. Correct.
Q. I assume you--you went to Mr. Jordan's office first, and
then he was going to escort you over and turn you over to Mr.
Carter?
A. Correct.
Q. And it was at that meeting that you brought up the
possibility of someone overhearing a conversation with the
President and you--between the two of you?
A. Yes.
Q. What else was said at that meeting with Mr. Jordan?
A. I think it covered a topic that I thought we weren't
discussing here.
Q. Uh, okay. All right. I'm not sure.
A. Okay. Well, I--I know I've testified to this in my--I
think in all three, if not both of my grand jury appearances,
and I'm very happy to stand by that testimony.
Q. All right. I'm going to go around this a little bit
without getting into details. You had a conversation with Mr.
Jordan to detail--to give him more specific details of your
relationship with the President.
A. Uh, to give him more details of some of the types of
phone calls that we had.
Q. Okay. Uh, did you ask Mr. Jordan had he spoken with the
President during that conversation?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. And why was this--why did you need to know that, or why
was it important that you know that?
A. I wanted the President to know I'd been subpoenaed.
Q. Did, uh--in your, uh, proffer, you say that you made it
clear to Mr. Jordan that you would deny the sexual
relationship. Do you recall saying that in your proffer?
A. Uh, I know--I know that was written in my proffer.
Q. Okay. Well, I guess the better question is did you--did
you in fact make that clear to Mr. Jordan that you would deny
a sexual relationship with the President?
A. I--I'm not really sure. I--this is sort of an area that,
uh, has been difficult for me. I think, as I might have
discussed in the grand jury, that when I originally wrote
this proffer, it was to be a road map and, really,
something to help me to get immunity and not necessarily--
it's not perfect.
Uh, so, I think that was my intention--I know that was my
intention of--or at least what I thought I was doing--but I
never really thought that this would become the be-all and
end-all, my proffer.
Q. Did, uh, did you bring with you to the meeting with Mr.
Jordan, and for the purpose of carrying it, I guess, to Mr.
Carter, items in response to this request for production?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss those items with Mr. Jordan?
A. I think I showed them to him, but I'm not 100 percent
sure. If I've testified that I did, then I'd stand by that.
Q. Okay. How did you select those items?
A. Uh, actually, kind of in an obnoxious way, I guess. I--I
felt that it was important to take the stand with Mr. Carter
and then, I guess, to the Jones people that this was
ridiculous, that they were--they were looking at the wrong
person to be involved in this. And, in fact, that was true. I
know and knew nothing of sexual harassment. So I think I
brought the, uh, Christmas cards, that I'm sure everyone in
this room has probably gotten from the President and First
Lady, and considered that correspondence, and some innocuous
pictures and--they were innocuous.
Q. Were they the kind of items that typically, an intern
would receive or, like you said, any one of us might receive?
A. I think so.
Q. In other words, it wouldn't give away any kind of
special relationship?
A. Exactly.
Q. And was that your intent?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss how you selected those items with
anybody?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Did Mr. Jordan make any comment about those items?
A. No.
Q. Were any of these items eventually turned over to Mr.
Carter?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell Mr. Jordan at that meeting that morning
that these were not all of the gifts?
A. I think I--I know I sort of alluded to that in my
proffer, and I don't, uh--it's possible. I don't have a
specific recollection of that.
[[Page S1223]]
Q. And do you have a recollection of any response he may
have made if you said that?
A. No.
Q. That--did you tell Mr. Jordan that day that the, uh,
President gave you a hatpin and that the hatpin was mentioned
in the subpoena?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss the hatpin with Mr. Jordan?
A. On the 22nd?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Any other time?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. On the 19th.
Q. Okay, and what was--I think I may have missed that,
going through that. Tell me about it.
A. Actually, I think we--we went through it.
Q. You just maybe mentioned it.
A. I mentioned it when I first mentioned to him the
subpoena that the hatpin had concerned me.
Q. What was the significance of that hatpin to you? That
seems to stand out. Was that--was that a--
A. Right. I think, as I mentioned before, it was an alarm
to me because it was a specific item--
Q. Right.
A. --in this list of generalities--I don't know
generalities, but of general things--you sort of go--hatpin?
Q. Right. I recall that, but I--I think my question was,
was it of any special significance to you.
A. Sure.
Q. Was it, like, the first gift or something, that it
really stood out above the others?
A. Yes. It--it was--it was the first gift he gave me. It
was a thoughtful gift. It was beautiful.
Q. And was the hatpin in that list, that group of items
that you carried to surrender to Mr. Carter?
A. No.
Q. And the hatpin was not in that list of items that you
showed Mr. Jordan?
A. I--I didn't show Mr. Jordan a list of items.
Q. No--I thought you said you showed him the items.
A. Correct.
Q. And the hatpin was not in that group--I may have
``list''--
A. Oh.
Q. --but the hatpin was not in that group of items--
A. No, it was not.
Q. --that you showed Mr. Jordan. Okay.
Tell us, if you would, how you arrived at Mr. Carter's. I
know you rode in a car, but Mr. Jordan was with you--
A. Yes.
Q. --you went in--and tell us what happened.
A. Uh, in the car, we spoke about job things. I know he
mentioned something about, I think, getting in touch with
Howard Pastor, and I mentioned to Mr. Jordan that Mr. Bacon
knew Mr. Pastor and had already gotten in touch with him, and
so he should--I just wanted Mr. Jordan to be aware of that.
Uh, we talked about--it was really all about the job stuff
because Mr. Jordan--the man driving the car--I didn't want to
discuss anything with the case.
Q. But once you arrived, and Mr. Jordan made the
introduction--
A. Correct.
Q. --between the two of you. And did he explain to Mr.
Carter your situation, or did he go beyond just the
perfunctory introduction?
A. No.
Q. Did he leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you, uh--I guess, generally, what did you discuss
with Mr. Carter?
A. The same vanilla story I had kind of--well, actually,
not even that. I discussed with Mr. Carter the, uh, that this
was ridiculous, that I was angry, I didn't want to be
involved with this, I didn't want to be associated with Paula
Jones, with this case.
Q. Did you, uh--
A. I asked if I could sue Paula Jones. [Laughing.]
Q. Did you discuss an affidavit?
A. Yes, I believe I mentioned an affidavit.
Q. Did you mention, uh, the, uh--well, was there discussion
about how you could sign an affidavit that might be--allow
you to skirt being called as a witness?
A. Mr. Carter said that was a possibility but that there
were other things that we should try first; that he, uh,
thought--well, actually, can I ask my attorneys a question
for a moment?
MR. BRYANT: Uh, sure.
[Witness conferring with counsel.]
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, Ms. Lewinsky's mike is carrying;
it's picking up, so we don't want to--
THE WITNESS: Sorry. I was only saying nice things about you
all.
SENATOR DeWINE: Thank you.
[Laughter.]
MR. CACHERIS: So that you'll know what we're discussing
here, as you know, Ms. Lewinsky is not required to give up
her lawyer-client privileges, and the question we don't know
the answer to and would like to address after lunch is
whether in fact Mr. Carter has testified to this
conversation.
Therefore, perhaps--
SENATOR DeWINE: All right. Maybe counsel at this point
could--could you rephrase--rephrase the question or ask
another question, and after lunch, we can come back--
MR. CACHERIS: Or come back.
SENATOR DeWINE: Well, I don't want--I don't think he has to
move off the general area if he can--I'll leave that up to
counsel.
MR. BRYANT: There may be some misunderstanding or--
SENATOR DeWINE: Why don't you rephrase the question, and
we'll see where we are.
MR. BRYANT: --on this issue of--well, on this issue of the
attorney-client privilege. It is our understanding that she
is able to testify. But again, I don't know, uh, if we're
going to resolve that right now.
SENATOR DeWINE: Why don't we try to resolve that issue over
lunch, and--
MR. BRYANT: Because I do have other questions that would
relate to this area.
SENATOR DeWINE: --you can stay in this general area.
MR. BRYANT: Well, I'm not sure I can stay in this area too
far without other questions that might arguably be involved
in that privilege. I can ask them, and you can object if you
think they're within that range.
MR. CACHERIS: Well, as I said, it's our understanding that
under her agreement with the Independent Counsel, she has not
been required to waive her lawyer-client privilege, and we
don't want to do so here. That's that simple. And, Mr.
Bryant, I want to check to see if Mr. Carter has testified
about this. If he has, then we might be objecting--
MR. BRYANT: Well, she has already, I think, waived that
privilege through talking with the FBI and those folks. I
mean, we have statements that concern those conversations--
SENATOR DeWINE: Well, let's, instead of MR. BRYANT: And the
302's.
SENATOR DeWINE: Counsel, let me just--if I could interrupt
both of you, to keep moving here, Mr. Bryant, you have a
choice. You can continue on this line of questioning, and we
will have to deal with that, or you can move off of it, and
in 20 minutes we'll be at a lunch break and then we can try
to resolve that.
MR. BRYANT: To be clear and fair, let's just--let me
postpone the rest of this--
SENATOR DeWINE: That will be fine.
MR. BRYANT: --exam, and we'll move over to December 28th,
and we'll come back if it's appropriate.
SENATOR DeWINE: That will be fine.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm
sorry.
MR. BRYANT: No. That's a valid concern; it really is.
Let's talk a minute--I just don't want to forget to do
this; unless I make notes, I forget.
SENATOR LEAHY: You've got enough people here making notes;
I don't think it'll be--I don't think it'll be forgotten.
BY MR. BRYANT:
Q. We're going to move in the direction of the December
28th, 1997 meeting, and I'm going to ask you at some point
did you meet with the President later in December.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, and what date was that?
A. December 28th, 1997.
Q. Thank you. How did the meeting come about?
A. Uh, I contacted Mrs. Currie after Christmas and asked
her to find out if the President still wanted to give me his
Christmas present, or my Christmas present.
Q. Did Ms. Currie get back to you?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. And what was her response?
A. To come to the White House at 8:30 a.m. on the 28th.
Q. And that would have been Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you in fact go to the White House on that date?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did you get in?
A. I believe the Southwest Gate.
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